tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post6083714000075877433..comments2023-08-26T01:04:43.031+10:00Comments on Infertile Fantasies: Not All Kids Have Lollies - Lessons People Forgot To Learn When They Were FourBeahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-1591122792847124092008-02-04T16:19:00.000+10:002008-02-04T16:19:00.000+10:00When we first started trying, back when I thought ...When we first started trying, back when I thought a spontaneous pregnancy was, at the very most, only a few months away, I asked a favour of Mr Bea. "If I start turning into one of those obnoxious pregnant women who has to let everyone know she's pregnant all the time, will you slap me?"<BR/><BR/>"I don't know," he replied doubtfully. "I've put so much effort into not slapping you for being obnoxious in the past. You're asking me to undo a lot of training."<BR/><BR/>Back then, I was worried about irritating people. Infertility has made me realise it's much more important than that.<BR/><BR/>I want to make a closing statement on the debate. The bottom line is that we should all be mindful of how our actions affect other people, and pregnancy doesn't get you out of that. It's easy for women to believe that it does - amidst the turbulent storm of twentieth-century feminist politics, this is one of the myths which has surfaced and is still bobbing hopelessly about on the top of the water.<BR/><BR/>Of course, we should remember that some women face unique circumstances with their pregnancies, which may lead to a heightened need to bond with their unborn child through belly-touching. The basic principle - considering the needs of others as well as your own - still stands, but the "proper" actions will be different where the needs are different. This makes it hard to judge individual cases from the outside, but that's a problem we run into in every facet of life. <BR/><BR/>I have also tried to stick to debating the general rule, rather than the minutiae of its application. The readers and commenters here come from all parts of the globe, and for that reason, it's just not going to be possible to agree on a specific code of conduct. You wouldn't act the same way in Adelaide as you act on the streets of New York or Dehli, pregnant or otherwise. Some commenters (on the blog or by email) have acknowledged this by prefacing their thoughts with, "I come from such-and-such-place..." If you're reading this debate and your disagreement lies in the detail, just keep this in mind. <BR/><BR/>Others have openly admitted that, whilst they agree in principle, they're just not sure where the line should be drawn. Nevertheless, as Dramalish most eloquently put it, "smug is smug". I have yet to come across a society where people are allowed to do as they please without regard for the strangers around them. This applies to invisible as well as visible problems, and whilst ignorance of the fact that infertility exists is forgivable, it ought to be remedied.<BR/><BR/>Since nothing new has come up in this debate for a bit now, I'm closing off comments. If you have something to add, you are welcome to email me. I will add your comment if it adds to the debate.<BR/><BR/>BeaBeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-54328032626720712462008-02-03T18:30:00.000+10:002008-02-03T18:30:00.000+10:00I'm late to this party but my grandmother gave me ...I'm late to this party but my grandmother gave me the same speech only applied to ice cream rather than lollies<BR/><BR/>And I'm not sure who said this but I have the feeling it was one of the ancient philosophers:<BR/><BR/>"Be kinder than is necessary for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."<BR/><BR/>And while I don't always succeed because, hey! I'm not perfect (who knew? Not me!)it has repeated very loudly in my brain many times I've been about to waltz gaily down the unkind pathway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-29730311997395360952008-02-02T13:00:00.000+10:002008-02-02T13:00:00.000+10:00You know, Allie, the most frustrating thing is I'm...You know, Allie, the most frustrating thing is I'm not actually sure whether you disagree or not.<BR/><BR/>To disagree with me you would either have to think:<BR/><BR/>1. That there is no need to act with humility in whatever we're doing, out of respect for those in the world who are less fortunate than us, or<BR/><BR/>2. That pregnancy is a special case, unique amongst all the cases we've examined here - eating lollies, being thin, running in public, getting in and out of a lift, sending your kids to school with lunch, etc - that allows the pregnant woman to ignore this most basic rule of etiquette, upon which all other rules are formed.<BR/><BR/>If you agree with either of the above statements, then I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you disagree with the above statements, then we agree.<BR/><BR/>I do think the yoga has lessened my need to bond by touching my belly, since most of the yogic bonding exercises are done with hands in other, highly improbable positions. <BR/><BR/>For the record, when my sister told me about the pregnant client at the vet clinic, the first thought that came to my mind was that she was in the middle of a real or possible pregnancy complication, had rushed to the OB for an emergency visit, and the OB had, for some reason, failed to alleviate her fears (either by confirming them, or because s/he'd had to run a test the results of which weren't in yet, etc). <BR/><BR/>So I explained to my sister that, even though that didn't make her actions *right*, they might be, at least, understandable, and that she should refrain from taking it personally and give this woman the consideration we should all give to any stranger whose circumstances we aren't aware of.<BR/><BR/>BeaBeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-48026943498502976902008-02-02T06:51:00.000+10:002008-02-02T06:51:00.000+10:00Kate...you obviously didn't bother to read what I ...Kate...you obviously didn't bother to read what I responded. I have stated that there are CERTAIN situations when touching bellies aren't appropriate...when someone is visibly hurting is the main example. Or when someone is trying to literally "rub it in" But in general...AGAIN I repeat...most people don't do this to hurt someone and therefor shouldn't be punished for doing something so loving or natural. <BR/><BR/>And I can only go by what my lifelong friends have said. I have neverasked someone to rub my belly...in fact aside from myself and my husband and children I quite resent when people touch my belly. Its mine...back off. EXCEPT when I have had friends touch it at THEIR request. Infertile or not I have let them...although not all ask or wait for permission. But as for my friends suffering from infertility...like I said...we have talked in depth...just as we have talked in depth about marriage, death, prengnacy and other life issues. I can not be inside their heads. No one can. So you can't presume to know what ALL infertiles are thinking. I trust when they say something is okay...I can see and read their expressions when something is not. Yes...I am sure it hurts that they aren't currently feeling a belly or thier own when they see someone touching thier own...BUT they both(my 2 good friends) have said that seeing that gives them hope that outweighs the sadness. So to say that no woman should rub thier belly becuase it hurts 12.5% of the population...well its stupid. Sorry...but it is. Seeing people running off to enjoy dinner and a movie or a cruise on short notice...that makes me whistful sometimes...I don't do short notice now because I made the choice to have a family...so should these people reign in their excitement over weekend plans because I can't go see the latest movie? Or while at a work party...when I see everyone drinking...should they not have a drink just because I can't because I am pregnant or nursing? I mean REALLY...its crazy to assume people should stop doing stuff just because someone else can't. <BR/><BR/>Don't assume you know who I am or what I am made of. My friendships, new and old say enough to le tme know I am doing just fine in the thoughtful citizen department. However I am a realist...and in "general" I would never expect someones to minimize there joy for me. I would expect them to use sensitivity...but infertility can go on for years and beyond...so to assume someone shouldn't "glow" just in case they hurt some random stranger...sorry...thats crazy talk.<BR/><BR/>And I've spent more than enough time on this topic. Think what you want...think I'm an uncaring b*tch...and I'll think your just as uncaring to wish all woman would disappear to a secret valley once they get pregnant. Cuz that is the feeling you are giving off. You know...speaking as one of those would be velley dwellers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-13698836945686857662008-02-02T01:56:00.000+10:002008-02-02T01:56:00.000+10:00Allie- Thank you for your response. My question r...Allie- <BR/>Thank you for your response. My question regarded whether or not you truly know how your infertile friends feel, not how firm your position was regarding belly touching (and not how you feel about each other, but how <EM>they</EM> feel about gratuitous belly touching). I appreciate that you are attempting to clearly show how you will not be moved on this position, but I’m still asking how, as a person with no fertility problems, you can truly know what is going on in the head of your infertile friend. <BR/><BR/>Friends or no, I think you missed the point. I am not debating your feelings towards your friends. My friends love and care about me and know me inside and out. Our feelings for one another are genuine and loving and supportive, as I’m sure yours are with your friends. However, as I said, my friends, even the closest of close, have no real idea of how hurtful some situations are. I, just like your friend, am an extremely strong and confident woman. You have to be to deal with infertility and come out as anything other than a shell of who you were before. And I would tell my friends if they were doing something to me that bothered me. But having a friend do something is very different than having a stranger do something. I think you might agree with that- you probably don’t mind your friend touching your pg belly, but a stranger doing so would possibly be a little weird. In the same way, seeing a friend rub her belly is very different than being a witness to a stranger gloatingly stroking a belly. So I think what I’m trying to say (and trying to glean a response on) is regardless of how well you know your friends, or how close you are, or how sure you are that they would tell you so, how do you really know that they hands-down agree with you regarding <EM>excessive</EM> belly touching? <BR/><BR/>I understand that you will never be convinced that lovingly touching your belly is wrong. Because touching your belly isn’t wrong. Repeatedly rubbing your belly in public (while not specifically wrong) is unnecessary and gratuitous. And I respect that your mind is firm on this issue, but I would say that you should consider that maybe as much as your infertile friends love you, that there is a little piece inside them that is crushed every time you present yourself with your proudly pregnant belly, and that because they love and care about you, it may be possible that they present a different face to you than they would to another infertile person. <BR/><BR/>I am certainly not debating how much you and your friends care about each other, or how strong your infertile friends are or aren’t. I’m not debating that you feel that lovingly placing a protective hand on your belly is always appropriate. I am debating whether or not you really have any understanding of what it’s like to see someone being incredibly insensitive, and whether or not what you consider “loving” rubs, may, in fact, be gratuitous at times. <BR/><BR/>And furthermore, you say that you sympathize, but then you immediately follow up by essentially saying that there is never a circumstance where your joy should be tempered by the situation. So how is it both ways? How can you sympathize, or “feel emotions” for (for instance) a woman who has just suffered her third failed IVF, while at the same time, refusing to (temporarily) abstain from lovingly rubbing the pregnant belly that this woman may never have? And I think one of the major points of the initial post is that 12.5% of the population is infertile, so 12.5% of the time, rubbing your belly could be hurting someone. Being subtle with your actions is all that has ever been asked. To balance your needs with those of the greater community, and to be mindful of that 12.5% of the community that most people would rather sweep under the rug, is all that is being asked. <BR/><BR/>I know that I won’t change your mind. I know that you have repeated the same point over and over again, which is that your joy is so great that you cannot rein it in, and furthermore that no one’s hurt or suffering could ever be enough for you to abstain from publicly sharing your joy and your love with not only your future child, but anyone who is lucky enough to be within eyeballing distance. And yet I still need to know how it is that you can be respectful towards and empathetic with infertile women as you claim to be if there is no single person in this world for whom you would “rein in” that joy?katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08056463808792013011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-25077584113715282572008-02-01T13:53:00.000+10:002008-02-01T13:53:00.000+10:00Of course in extrordinary circumstances you have t...Of course in extrordinary circumstances you have to contain your joy...thats true...but its relative to the situation.<BR/><BR/>I`m talking in general...everyday life situations. Not `gramma died and my dog got run over`situations.<BR/><BR/>I mean...in general...if I am walking down the street and my baby kicks, or feeling maternal and loving while shopping for baby clothes...or having a good yoga stretch and feelign at one with my body...then yes...I should not restrict my movements. there is nothing shameful about touching a belly(except the act of doing so to HURT someone-but thats not teh belly touch thats shameful, simply the attitude of the person). Yoga for example is physical, mental, spiritual...and when you are that focused on your body...then you are more likely to be even more filled with feeling towards your belly. However you example of the b*tch at the vet...thats not a pregnant thing...thats a self absorbed thing. And a lousy pet owner...so instead of resenting her attitude...pray for her baby...and her cat.<BR/><BR/>I KNOW the world is full of a$$holes...but in general...I still do not believe that someone touching their belly is gross, or wrong or disrespectful. When I see someone touching thier belly(and yes I am not infertile but I can see how it might hurt to not be able to do it) I prefer to see someone loving thier child and building a lasting bond with their baby. And no one will ever be able to convince me that an innocent loving gesture is wrong. Just like no one will ever be able to erase the pain of infertility from your minds.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-33804439874484456492008-01-31T19:08:00.000+10:002008-01-31T19:08:00.000+10:00Allie - it's not true that a woman should never ha...Allie - it's not true that a woman should never have to restrain her joy for anyone. If I rung my sister bursting with good news about my pregnancy, only to hear that my sister had that day received a cancer diagnosis, then it would be very appropriate to restrain my joy. People would be shocked at my behaviour if I didn't.<BR/><BR/>Note this doesn't *diminish* my joy. I am still just as joyful over my pregnancy. It's just that it's appropriate to reign in my bursting excitement out of mindfulness for other people's circumstances. <BR/><BR/>Of course, the same amount of restraint isn't called for in everyday situations - the restraint is only proportional to the situation around you. But to say there is *no need whatsoever* to reign yourself in for anyone *period* is clearly wrong.<BR/><BR/>BeaBeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-53820892330319340832008-01-31T16:44:00.000+10:002008-01-31T16:44:00.000+10:00Ooops that was supposed to be (NOT with) me not (n...Ooops that was supposed to be (NOT with) me not (no with)...which would imply they were with me...was in a hurry and didn't proof read at all...sorry<BR/><BR/>AllieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-34908512628487515172008-01-31T13:35:00.000+10:002008-01-31T13:35:00.000+10:00Kate,My friend didn't guide me here...I found my w...Kate,<BR/><BR/>My friend didn't guide me here...I found my way here through her links and her friends links and then we spoke about it after the fact. <BR/><BR/>And I said in a previous comment...my frieds have cried and screamed and expressed thier frustrations to(no WITH) me on occasions. I was simply saying that they aren't bitter towards everything baby/fertility related. Its hard to get the tone/words when its in writing here...but I do sympathize and feel emotions for people. However thats not my point...my point is...that a woman shouldn't have to reign in her joy for anyone. A PERSON should be kind and considerate if they are knowingly being mean...but the belly touches are pride/love/instinct/protection.<BR/><BR/>My feelings and relationships for my friends aren't up for debate here...they are never questioned by those who count. And I have deliberately asked a couple of them not to comment here with response to this thread...its nt their fight...although they've assured me that they understand. And they are also the first ones to reach out and touch my belly when I would see them...so...don't worry about thier feelings. They are storogn confident women...and would be the first to tlel me if I was being politically/personally incorrect towards their situations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-45721530890369007482008-01-31T08:30:00.000+10:002008-01-31T08:30:00.000+10:00(Oh, as for the friends, it's very true that a lot...(Oh, as for the friends, it's very true that a lot of infertile women assure their fertile friends that they don't mind about things like belly-rubbing because they don't want to sound overly bitter, when actually they do mind. But there are also women who truly don't mind. Since we don't know these friends of Allie's, I'm going to take them at their word. <BR/><BR/>Just because a few infertile women don't mind doesn't alter my point - that we should be mindful in public. After all, there are more than enough lonely singles, recent divorcees, people whose partners refuse to have babies with them, etc etc to make up for those members of the infertile population who truly don't mind.)<BR/><BR/>(Bea)Beahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-6905175958393723642008-01-31T08:24:00.000+10:002008-01-31T08:24:00.000+10:00Kate: Your first paragraph highlights an important...Kate: Your first paragraph highlights an important point.<BR/><BR/>The thing is, there was a time when a woman's fertility was used almost like a stick to beat her. During pregnancy she was made to quit work, cover up, and be not seen and not heard. This spilled over after birth - formula was best, baby routines were in, and if you didn't cry it out you might as well be abusing your child.<BR/><BR/>The scary thing is it wasn't long ago. Which is why we're dealing with this current problem now - those ideas are too recent in our society's memory.<BR/><BR/>No-one wants to return to those days. We want pregnant woman to feel worthwhile, confident in their bodies, and respected. We even want them to use their mothering instincts - to breastfeed, to reach out to a child who cries, etc.<BR/><BR/>The problem is that, for some people, the backlash has taken things too far. There is an attitude out there that pregnancy gives women a "right" to treat the world like an extension of their own living rooms. (Another part of this is the breast-feeding police who call "child abuse" at anyone using formula, for whatever reason.)<BR/><BR/>A public space is still a shared space, and everyone's needs must be taken into account.<BR/><BR/>There is a middle ground here, we just haven't come to a good agreement on where it is. That's why it's important to raise awareness about infertility.<BR/><BR/>Of course, having made people suitably aware, we should be careful not to "flaunt" infertility, either. It's going to take a while to achieve that balance. Some over-reaching tends to happen, and we must watch out for it.<BR/><BR/>BeaBeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-7310953203009014282008-01-31T08:07:00.000+10:002008-01-31T08:07:00.000+10:00Ellen: I think you have to be careful interpreting...Ellen: I think you have to be careful interpreting the word "instinct". It's not a hard-wired instinct like drawing your hands away from a flame, which can only be overcome through extreme concentration akin to self-hypnosis. It's more that it's the "most obvious thing that comes to mind".<BR/><BR/>Obviously, this doesn't automatically make it acceptable. The point we can agree on is that it's not calculated malice, it's just lack of awareness.<BR/><BR/>BeaBeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-40639682621105723032008-01-31T08:03:00.000+10:002008-01-31T08:03:00.000+10:00Oh, what a nerve you've touched here. I am an inf...Oh, what a nerve you've touched here. <BR/><BR/>I am an infertile who thinks that it is <EM>perfectly</EM> appropriate to discuss infertility in public, loudly even, and mostly because people seem to think that infertility is shameful. Just as idiots seem to think it's appropriate to ask when I'm going to have a child, or why I don't have any yet (or my <EM>favorite</EM>) "are you pregnant?" (no, asshole- I'm just fat, but thanks for reminding me.), I consider it appropriate to openly say, "No, I'm not. I'd like to be, but for me, getting knocked up will be an emotionally, physically, financially and mentally draining task. And that's a really hard question to answer, so you should consider not asking it to other people, too, because you never know who might be in the same situation I am. It can really hurt a person's feelings." It may sound like "garnering sympathy" to the casual overhearing person, but instead, it's really trying to get people to quit asking those inappropriate questions, and to be honest about why. Because really, until people are educated about it, how in the world can any kind of change be expected? And until it's discussed frankly and openly, how can we ever expect to not wear that coat of shame? <BR/><BR/>And, just a question for Allie, with her infertile friend who guided her here- is it possible that maybe- just maybe- your friend forwarded you to an infertility blog so that you could gain additional insight about how to act towards infertile women? I'm asking not to be rude, but to point out that it's possible that you perceive these friends of yours as being totally non-bitter with the path that their fertility (or lack of) has taken, and in fact, they may feel very much the same as some women here do. My own best and closest friend might, like you, think that I'm totally normal and non-bitter and well-adjusted in regards to the baby-making process, but in truth, I don't share the anger and the hurt and the loss and the bitterness with her because she just wouldn't get it. She sees in me the public face that you seem to see in your friends. Do you *really* know that your friends enjoy watching pregnant women gratuitously stroking their bellies? I'm just asking to maybe prompt you to consider that it is possible that these friends of yours may not be sharing all of this with you because (at least as you seem in your comments here on this infertility blog) you don't necessarily get what the whole life of an infertile person amounts to. I really promise that I'm not trying to be mean or ugly, or start up a fight, but rather out of curiosity for how you came to be in the midst of a debate on a blog dedicated to infertility.katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08056463808792013011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-20303984582706810022008-01-31T00:18:00.000+10:002008-01-31T00:18:00.000+10:00Brava, Bea!I do not mind the occasional pat on the...Brava, Bea!<BR/><BR/>I do not mind the occasional pat on the belly and happy soft smile that often glows on the face of the PG woman. What I do mind is the woman who uses her belly as a convenient shelf for her arm or constantly cups her belly with both hands. Some many say it is reflexive or instinctive. I would say it is a reflex that has grown into a habit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-29805398846398287082008-01-30T15:08:00.000+10:002008-01-30T15:08:00.000+10:00Forgot to say to Jenna (inconceivable journey) - L...Forgot to say to Jenna (inconceivable journey) - LOL it is getting confusing! Just to clarify - running in heels for a genuine reason is fine! Frankly, the nature of heels is such that I don't think anyone runs in them without one! But it would be rude if they did. In fact, it's generally considered rude to run from place to place everywhere you go. Usually it's polite to walk unless you have a reason to do otherwise, or within certain contexts (joggers in the park). Which to the infertility/belly-rubbing metaphor means... well, exactly what I said in the first place!<BR/><BR/>BeaBeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-16089276906152658322008-01-30T14:54:00.000+10:002008-01-30T14:54:00.000+10:00When I first glanced at your new posts, I mistaken...When I first glanced at your new posts, I mistakenly thought someone had been attempting to rub *your* belly, LOL.<BR/><BR/>But really, I appreciate your sensitivity to this.<BR/><BR/>Cuz yeah, the incessant, unstoppable belly rub. Ouch!!GLouisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15146524259296901512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-74191034025337893622008-01-30T11:46:00.000+10:002008-01-30T11:46:00.000+10:00Allie - that's very true. I think - at least I wo...Allie - that's very true. I think - at least I would very much hope - that all infertile women understand that, no matter how much hurt they're in.<BR/><BR/>BeaBeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-36857471133171464072008-01-30T11:31:00.000+10:002008-01-30T11:31:00.000+10:00I acknowledged that somepeople brag in my original...I acknowledged that somepeople brag in my original comment...when I said "aside frm bragging" that most people don't deliberately set out to hurt peoples feelings. Its not as though I or anyone I now ALWAYS touches their belly or deliberately does it to hurt someone. Its instinctual...MOST times. Some people do it to be braggy...just like some people go arond telling the WORLD that will listen about their infertility woes(no I don't mean on a blog...I've heard it in lineups at stores from people I just met). I would NEVER go around bragging about how my husband and I got pregnant first try and slip into personal details. But several women I know of(not friends of mine...my friends who aren't like that) tell of health issues, fertility issues, money issues...as a way of garnering sympathy...so there are "braggy and whiney" types out there...in all mindsets. But in general MOST people don't set out to hurt people by sticking thier hands on their bellies...thats all I'm saying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-83308212259630156512008-01-30T11:12:00.000+10:002008-01-30T11:12:00.000+10:00I know - I'm hogging my own comments section, but ...I know - I'm hogging my own comments section, but I don't have everyone's emails. Also, I'm going to duplicate another comment, because the argument seems to be getting spread across posts and I think this bears repeating:<BR/><BR/>I wanted to drop in just to highlight the good counterpoint that I thought came out of this discussion, because I don't think I made enough of it.<BR/><BR/>In some cases, pregnant women may have a heightened need to bond with their children before birth, due to special circumstances. This is not because they want to strut or draw attention, and is well above what would be considered a "normal" need to bond.<BR/><BR/>I think the basic idea behind what I've said encompasses this scenario, in that I've emphasised mindfulness and consideration according to needs. If you go out, mindful of those around you who are experiencing infertility and loss, and weigh your needs against theirs, your needs may indeed be greater. Therefore it's hard to make snap judgements about individual situations based on looks alone.<BR/><BR/>When you're suffering, you do expect other people's actions to hurt sometimes. That's life, and everyone accepts this. Even if we're in pain, others' needs can be greater than our own. <BR/><BR/>But what no-one should accept is a complete disregard for their feelings. Unfortunately, a lot of people are not aware of the extent of the problem of infertility, and worse - a minority of pregnant women seem to think that theirs are the only feelings that matter.<BR/><BR/>BeaBeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-58335938656584023422008-01-30T09:54:00.000+10:002008-01-30T09:54:00.000+10:00Kami - argh. The internet ate my comment.The sort ...Kami - argh. The internet ate my comment.<BR/><BR/>The sort of public affection you talk about is a useful example. It varies as to what actions, exactly, people think are appropriate, but we can agree that it's always appropriate to be mindful that those around you may be having a hard time relationship-wise, and it's especially important to restrain yourself if you know they are. It is never, of course, appropriate to show affection simply for the sake of public display (which, because we all agree on *that*, happens rarely).<BR/><BR/>Other than that, it is really hard to know where the correct place is to draw the line. A lot of people have echoed that thought.<BR/><BR/>BeaBeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-60213970309519750792008-01-30T09:16:00.000+10:002008-01-30T09:16:00.000+10:00"Let's all stick to debating the issue as I've wri..."Let's all stick to debating the issue as I've written it, and not try to make some sort of bigger issue out of it."<BR/><BR/>P.S. In case it wasn't clear - this is a general comment. <BR/><BR/>BeaBeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-52117892655278331972008-01-30T09:00:00.000+10:002008-01-30T09:00:00.000+10:00Allie - the reason there is a difference between r...Allie - the reason there is a difference between resting your hand on your chin and deliberately and unecessarily trying to draw attention to your pregnancy is in the effect it has on other people. I'm beginning to wonder if you've read the post or are just reacting to a *perceived* attitude.<BR/><BR/>Comparing it to arse-scratching is not classy, but the point being made is that gestures which offend those around us are impolite. This example, it has been noted several times, is much harsher than it needs to be, because arse-scratching is *very* unacceptable in public. Unfortunately, though I've calmed down, some commenters are still feeling very ticked.<BR/><BR/>You lost me, also, on the dress size analogy - it doesn't seem to fit in. Are you saying that skinny people tend to go around loudly mentioning their dress sizes and asking what dress size fat people wear all the time? Personally, I think that's a bit rude, too, but then most people think that behaviour is a bit off. No-one said that simply *having* a larger, or smaller, dress size was anyone else's problem. In fact, I specifically said it wasn't.<BR/><BR/>Let's all stick to debating the issue as I've written it, and not try to make some sort of bigger issue out of it.<BR/><BR/>BeaBeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877513815828460269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-65874140647052575352008-01-30T08:16:00.000+10:002008-01-30T08:16:00.000+10:00errr.. I'm confused. Are the infertiles the fat p...errr.. I'm confused. Are the infertiles the fat people or the skinny people? I'm guessing we are the fat people? Is that right? Who exactly are the arthritis people? Are we the runners? No no.. that can't be right, although I have been known to run in my high heals when I'm late for a blood draw. Was that wrong? Or maybe I get a pass for running in high heals and being a fat person. grrr.... I wonder if perhaps we can stick with the lollie analogy as I'm starting confuse my comparisons. Personally I'm thin AND I run, so I guess that makes me a giant lollie licking ass right?<BR/><BR/>(but I don't really lick asses, so maybe I'm still confused.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-14780406485589284162008-01-30T05:07:00.000+10:002008-01-30T05:07:00.000+10:00Actually I have several friends that have/are stru...Actually I have several friends that have/are struggling with infertility. They are needless to say frustrated/upset by the situation but they aren't bitter, at least not to the general public. With their friends and family the cry, scream and express the misery that they are entitled to feel. Which is how I found myself here. A friend of a friend of a friend mentioned it and I popped over to see. They also feel that its ridiculous to sensor a woman and her belly touches. <BR/><BR/>As for the "decline in manners of society" well...resting your hand on your hip, brushing you hair behind your ears and thoughtfully resting your hand on your chin aren't considered ill manners...so I can hardly think that resting your hand protectively and lovingly on your hand is ill mannered. But I do think its quite gross that you'd think of a loving gesture is the equivalant to scratching your a$$. Classy...<BR/><BR/>And as for the skinny girl analogy...great...except you say that the women dress appropriately and illustrate your point. But the size of the outfit they are in is the concern for fat people...they don't care how classy and correct they dress...they simply find distress in the size of the garment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25184159.post-41906322536693004032008-01-30T02:55:00.000+10:002008-01-30T02:55:00.000+10:00I love the posts - and the comments as well.I have...I love the posts - and the comments as well.<BR/><BR/>I have often thought about what is appropriate in public. I have a wonderful relationship with my husband and often hold hands, smile lovingly at each other and sometimes even kiss in public (just a peck). Since infertility struck, I have wondered if we should tone it down some. Sure, it is spontaneous and not meant to gloat, but to someone who is lonely or recently divorced, etc. I think it could be a painful reminder of what he or she doesn't have. <BR/><BR/>If we know we are in the company of someone who may be vulnerable to our actions, we definitely tone it down, but what about a walk through a park? I admit, we haven't modified our behavior much. Perhaps we should.<BR/><BR/>On the pregnancy front, now that I am showing, I find that I try to suck it in, stand a bit taller and roll up my sleeve to expose my pomegranate bracelet. I have thought about getting a shirt that reads, "I'm not pregnant, I'm just fat."Kamihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01215000341567119958noreply@blogger.com